Hamid Mir, one of Pakistan’s biggest names in journalism, is no longer on air on GEO TV. His show was banned after he criticised the establishment when the attack on journalist Asad Toor took place inside his house in Islamabad in May. Hamid Mir appeared on BBC’s HARDTalk with Stephen Sackur and spoke about censorship, his coverage of Imran Khan, the new media laws being planned and who really is behind these attacks on journalists.
The episode was released on August 9, 2021.
BBC: Is the Pakistani state out to silence independent journalism? Your show is currently banned, why?
Hamid Mir: I am banned on my TV channel and I cannot write my regular column in my newspaper. This is not the first time. When Pervez Musharraf was in power, he also banned me on TV but you see, he was a military dictator, he only banned me on TV, he never banned me on newspaper. Now Mr Imran Khan is the prime minister of Pakistan, and now unfortunately not only am I banned on TV but I am banned from my newspaper column. So there is democracy in Pakistan but there is no democracy. There is a constitution in Pakistan but there is no constitution. And I am a living example of censorship in Pakistan.
BBC: Your suspension came about after you delivered a fiery speech at the end of May to the national press club when you talked about the forces that target journalists in Pakistan. Just a few days earlier a journalist had been attacked in his own home. What did you mean by these forces and what did you mean they would face retaliation from journalists?
Hamid Mir: I survived many assassination attempts in Pakistan and I never got justice. I was involved in many fake cases, and the courts cleared me. I was threatened again and again when our information minister Fawad Chaudhry spoke to you on your show the same day on May 28, the day I delivered a speech, he said that there are some journalists who stage dramas just to get asylum outside Pakistan. And I was standing with my journalist colleague who was attacked inside his home. He is a young journalist and I was expressing my solidarity with him. So I said that when a journalist is attacked in Pakistan there is no justice and the police and law enforcement agencies always fail to identify the culprits. So if you will not provide us justice then we will be forced to mention the names of the people who we think are responsible and…
BBC: What do you mean you will name names? How do you possibly know who attacked Asad Toor and frankly how do you know in the past because no one was brought to justice?
Hamid Mir: In my case, when I survived an assassination attempt in Karachi, I was shot six times, two are still lodged in my body. I named a person, the head of an intelligence agency, then the government headed by Mr Nawaz Sharif, they established a three-member inquiry commission which was composed of three senior judges of the Supreme Court, including the then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. And I made my statement in front of that high-powered commission, not once but twice. I was injured but I [still] appeared. I made my statement. And when the commission called the person, who in my view was responsible for attacking me or hatching a conspiracy against me, he refused to appear and never appeared and no report came out. And the same was the case with Mr Asad Toor. He complained to the police. The police registered an FIR. The name of an intelligence agency was mentioned in that FIR and we were demanding that Asad Toor should be given justice.
BBC: Is it your contention then that the Pakistani intelligence services were responsible for that attack on Asad Toor, which he has described, and is it your contention that the Pakistani State is behind the rise in attacks on journalists we have seen over the last year and more?
Hamid Mir: These things are documented again and again by international media organisations, by the Pakistani media organisations and by the HRCP. We have different reports. These are the documented facts and the State agencies and the intelligence agencies were blamed again and again for organising attacks or kidnapping journalists.
BBC: Information Minister Fawad Chaudhry said, please do not jump to conclusions. The case of Mr Toor is complex and it will be investigated properly and we will seek justice. You, he would say, are simply jumping to conclusions…
Hamid Mir: He made that statement two months ago on your show. Now two months have passed. There is no arrest. There is no conclusion. So Mr Chaudhry made a statement on your show and he said, please don’t jump to conclusions. So two months have passed and where is the justice? That is the issue, that is the question. Then he said that journalists stage a drama inside Pakistan to get asylum outside Pakistan. Asad Toor or I, we never tried for asylum. We are not interested in emigration. So where is the justice? So that is the problem. The State of Pakistan has failed to provide us justice.
BBC: If we’re going to talk justice, there are different ways of looking at the question of justice. You now face accusations of sedition for what you said in that speech in late May. You, I think, face at least six different accusations of sedition. Petitions have been filed to see you brought to court. You face charges and if those charges end in conviction, you could face life in prison.
Hamid Mir: Yes, and I am ready to face a life in prison because if they will be able to convict me at least the whole world will come to know what is going on in Pakistan. The whole world is already aware of what is going on because I am living example of censorship in Pakistan. Everybody knows what happened to Hamid Mir and why he is banned and everybody knows the names of the people which I have not mentioned, everybody knows who were responsible for imposing a ban on me. The common Pakistanis are very wise, they are very clever. They know each and every thing about what’s going on. But you see, there is no rule of law in Pakistan. And we only want justice, we want that the rule of law should be established in Pakistan. And if a journalist is asking questions, don’t try to silence his voice.
BBC: On one hand, you sound absolutely sure that you know who, and it’s obvious you mean who inside the Paksitani security agencies and the Pakistani State, is responsible for these attacks on journalists. But then you seem to back off because in the Washington Post you clarified, ‘I never named anybody and any security agency or the army. I cannot remain silent on attacks against journalists but excuse my harsh tone if it caused inconvenience to anyone.’ It sounds as though you have been perhaps pressured and you’re now backing off some of your more fiery statements.
Hamid Mir: No, I am not backing off. You see, there was a legal problem. In one of the petitions against me which was filed in Gujranwala, the petitioner, who is a lawyer, he claimed in his petition that Hamid Mir tried to malign the senior generals of the Pakistan Army, including the army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa, he mentioned the name of the army chief, but in my speech I never mentioned his name. That was the first thing. So I clarified that I never mentioned any name. And the second thing was that I thought that maybe my tone was very harsh and maybe some people were trying to give the impression that I was blaming the whole institution, so I clarified my position that I am not blaming the whole institution. I only talked about some individuals who are trying to silence the voice of the media.
BBC: Are you disappointed that your employers Geo TV and the Jang newspaper group have not stood by you? You are now suspended. You’ve lost your voice and your platform as a journalist. How disappointed are you by that.
Hamid Mir: I will not make a wrong statement. Yes, certainly I am disappointed but I can understand the circumstances because the editor in chief of my media group, Mir Shakil ur Rehman, he was arrested last year and he remained in the detention of the National Accountability Bureau for more than seven months for a three-decade old case which was not a very big case. And I think that he was arrested, he was detained, just because of the freedom he was trying to give us. He got bail from the Supreme Court but his name was placed on the Exit Control List. He cannot leave Pakistan. He is already [being held] at gunpoint. So my employers, the gun is already at their [temple]. So when they were asked to ban Hamid Mir, they banned me. So I can understand their problem.
BBC: Is there a climate of fear now in Pakistan when it comes to journalists and journalism?
Hamid Mir: Yes, definitely, there is a climate of fear in Pakistan. A lot of young journalists, they are very disappointed and look at the state of media freedom in Pakistan. When Mr Imran Khan came to power in 2018 Pakistan was ranked at 139 on the World Press Freedom Index. Today, in 2021, it is 145. So Pakistan lost six points in the last three years. According to the International Federation of Journalists Pakistan is one of the five most dangerous countries for journalists in the whole world. This is not good for Pakistan, for its reputation and credibility in the international community. And yes, there is a climate of fear in Pakistan because journalists think it is becoming very difficult in this country and this government of Imran Khan Is now planning some more anti-media laws which is not acceptable to us.
BBC: You seem to be laying the blame directly at Imran Khan. I’m mindful that in years past you’ve been quite close to Imran Khan, he defended you and worked with you in years gone by. You praised him in years gone by. Do you think he personally wants to see you taken off air? Convicted and imprisoned?
Hamid Mir: This is a very tricky question. A very difficult question for me to respond, but I will try to very honestly. Imran Khan stood by me in 2007 when I was banned by General Pervez Musharraf, and yes at that time he was the biggest supporter of media freedom in Pakistan. Yes, I provided him a lot of space on my TV shows because he was in the Opposition, so and you can that I was friendly with him when he was in the Opposition. But when he became PM and I started raising questions and I even met him personally, and I asked him that your government should provide more space to the media, you are the biggest beneficiary of the media freedom. So he said yes. But unfortunately in 2019, one of my interviews with the former president, Asif Ali Zardari, was banned on my show and some other Opposition leaders were also banned on different TV channels. So we started criticising Imran Khan and so I think he was not happy with my criticism.
I think that Imran Khan is not directly responsible for imposing a ban on me. And I don’t think he wants me to be off air. But like past prime ministers, he is not a very powerful prime minister and I think he is helpless and he can’t help me.
BBC: This gets the root of Pakistan’s perennial question: Who really is calling the shots? Who really controls the country today? There are voices that say Imran Khan is essentially a puppet. That the real power is being exercised by the security agencies. Is that your view?
Hamid Mir: Pakistan is a viewed as a security state and if you go through the autobiography of Imran Khan, which I was reading last night again and Imran Khan gifted me his autobiography with his autograph. Imran Khan himself accepted about the role of the military establishment and the role of the ISI in his autobiography in his very clear words.
But let me tell you, it is Imran Khan, the current PM, who has written in his autobiography that no politician in Pakistan was able to defeat the military establishment. And he himself accused the ISI that when Musharraf was in power, the ISI tried to twist the arms of some of his colleagues and force them to change their loyalties to the then king’s party, the PML-Q. And the irony of the situation today is that PML-Q is the biggest ally of Imran Khan.
When I was born in Pakistan a military dictator Ayub Khan was ruling Pakistan, when I went to school a military general, General Yahya Khan, was ruling Pakistan. When I went to college, a military general, Ziaul Haq, was ruling Pakistan. When I started my journalism, General Ziaul Haq was ruling Pakistan. I was first banned by General Pervez Musharraf.
BBC: Many in Pakistan will listen to you and say you just turned against Imran Khan and you’re just making cheap partisan points. When people such as yourself say that the censorship and the attacks on journalists are worse than they have ever been. People will say that cannot be true, not least your own experience tells us that’s not true. You were kidnapped many many years ago, and interrogated by force. You were almost killed on two occasions, a car bomb, your body riddled with bullets. All of this happened long before Imran Khan came to power and in fact Imran’s government is trying to pass legislation for better protection for journalists. So why are you exaggerating the impact of Imran Khan in this negative way?
Hamid Mir: I am not exaggerating, if you talk to the human rights minister, Shireen Mazari, she will tell you that I tried my level best to cooperate with her to formulate the draft of the journalist protection bill which was presented recently in parliament. She accepted many times publicly that Hamid Mir helped me a lot with this draft and the other media bodies are also helping this government led by Imran Khan to make good legislation for media freedom.
But and on the other side this same government which you think is not responsible for imposing censorship on us, the same government to make a new law by the name of the Pakistan Media Development Authority though which they want to establish media tribunals and they want to convict journalists who will raise harsh questions, who will criticise the government. They will impose fines in the millions. They will send them to prison for two years, three years, and on one side, the government of Imran Khan is doing a good job by making a journalist protection bill but on the other hand, they are also trying to make a Pakistan Media Development Authority bill which is a total negation of the journalist protection bill. He is going to make the legislation for journalist protection, we are supporting him but if he will impose censorship on us through the Pakistan Media Development Authority bill and concentrate all the powers in the information ministry, and Mr Fawad Chaudhry will be the person to decide the fate of journalists in Pakistan then we will criticise them.
BBC: Do you fear for your life today? I refer to the two assassination attempts you survived. I refer to the toxic atmosphere today.
Hamid Mir: Yes, I am very concerned about my personal security for a long time. I asked my family to leave Pakistan and my family left, my daughter and wife have already left. I was also approached by some people who, they suggested I leave Pakistan. But I decided not to leave.
BBC: You have been a journalist and reporter through military dictatorships, through states of emergency, and some very very tough political times. What do you believe is happening in your country today. Do you believe democracy is in grave danger?
Hamid Mir: When I was born in Pakistan a military dictator Ayub Khan was ruling Pakistan, when I went to school a military general, General Yahya Khan, was ruling Pakistan. When I went to college, a military general, Ziaul Haq, was ruling Pakistan. When I started my journalism, General Ziaul Haq was ruling Pakistan. I was first banned by General Pervez Musharraf. So my life, my journalism is very much affected by military dictators in Pakistan. That is why you see, I think that the rule of law is the solution to all of our problems. That’s why we want a general democracy in Pakistan because the founder of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah was a democrat and I am a follower of his. And all those people who are trying to snatch media freedom from us are enemies of Pakistan and are enemies of Mohammed Ali Jinnah.